True Leaders Don’t Hide Behind A Title
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Audio Transcript:
Asher Smith (Producer)
Good morning. Welcome back. And before Friday, or whatever day it is for you when you're listening to this. Today we have an interview that we did with, a guy named Mike Huff from double E Workplace Solutions. And this is a full interview. So it's a little bit longer than the typical episode. And we previously have released a clip from this interview, but we thought, we would put out the, the whole interview because Alex wasn't able to sit down and record an episode for today.
Asher Smith (Producer)
So this is mainly around Alex's leadership style. There's a lot of questions asked about that, and he kind of gets into his own personal experiences with that. and a little bit more about his personal story. So, yeah, take a listen and enjoy.
Mike Huff
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about yourself. you know, you're, you know, a little bit about yourself, about leverage, and then, maybe your leadership style as well. Wow.
Alex Reneman
Yeah. so, yeah, I guess I it's almost funny to say that I don't really think about. And I'll use the analogy. So when I was younger, I was I'm 62, so I'm fairly tall ish in general population. But I wasn't always that way. I was like 55 coming in as a freshman. And so I always kind of looked everybody in the eyeball.
And as I've grown and I grew six inches my sophomore year. I still to myself see myself just about as tall as everybody else. I'm around, even if they're a good foot shorter than me. And I guess that would apply to when you asked me about my leadership and your leader. I don't really consider myself a leader in that way.
And that's I know that's that's that seems silly and it sounds like I'm making that up, but it just is. So yeah, I'm certainly I'm, I'm the founder of the company and I'm the CEO. And that that certainly implies some things. And I know there's responsibilities with that and I take those on. But but like even to talk about like, oh me as a leader or whatever it, it feels almost I don't know, arrogant or, or whatever, but like elitist and that's kind of, I guess I, I share that with you, as you asked me, and it kind of struck me on the side that permeates my leadership style, I guess.
So I'm not your typical, you know, pound the desk type of, of leader, in the same way in my house and same way at the, at the office and wherever. I'm much more of a collaborative leader now. There are times to take charge, and I will, but generally I'm really cautious. I I those all around me are equals, you know.
And so that's a long, bloated way to explain kind of my philosophy. But out of that stems lots of other things. But I think that's probably a pretty good fundamental basis for how I look at things.
Mike Huff
I'm laughing about your height because you are about a foot taller than me. And, when I was a freshman, I was four foot eight. Okay, I'm still not looking people in the eye.
Alex Reneman
Well, I'll tell you what. If you and I met, and we. If we get the chance to do that, I will. You will know that I'm faking. I'm just about as tall as you are.
Mike Huff
Yeah. No. That's great. We talk about in our leadership training. We talk about that, you know, the position of leadership. You know, not throwing that around versus, you know, being an influential leader. And, you know, if you got it through your position around then you're probably not going to have a team that wants to follow you versus having to follow you.
Alex Reneman
I think it's the weakest, the weakest form of leadership there is to leverage your position, your your, your birthright, your name, whatever, right, your, your, your finances. That is the absolute weakest type of influence you can put on anybody. And and I think you're right, it doesn't age well. And it often that's almost like being a dictator. At some point the head comes off you know.
And so I absolutely think it's silly when I see guys throwing their stuff around, whether it's a title or whatever.
Mike Huff
Yeah, yeah, you're I find you're going to get the bare minimum amount of people, you know, that they're going to do the exactly what they have to do, you know, what's required of them and then nothing more. But if you have a leader that's inspiring you and, leading by example, that's the one that they're going to take charge, come up with new ideas and, and find, you know, and just kind of help everybody grow.
Alex Reneman
Yeah, I think you're right. There's probably some science around this and maybe even I've read some, I've forgotten it or whatever. But like when you when someone becomes subservient, I think that turns off parts of their brain. And now you're not getting the full magic of that human. You're only getting what they're going to do it. You know, they're going to do what you tell them to do or what they think they have to do.
And it's not even if they're not revolting, right? They're they're obviously people are going to push against that and they're going to say, well, yeah, okay, buddy, I'll do the bare minimum. But but generally it's I think to your point, we become subservient. It's like, okay, what do I do next? Now what do I do next. And you've you've locked you've just basically eliminated probably more than half of their, their magic in their brain.
Whereas if you can unlock people and say, okay, here's the world of, of the universe of opportunities to you, now a lot of people don't want that. I get that. And so that can be a challenge. Then people die, you know, they struggle in their own, their own freedom. But generally, if you can create an environment that nourishes that and then you lead in a way that that encourages folks to be their magical self, I think you unlock all kinds of goodies.
Mike Huff
Yeah, yeah, sounds like, psychological safety. We talk a lot about that in the training as well. There you go. You're creating that environment where where people feel safe, you know, they can they can make a mistake. And, you know, there's there's repercussions and mistakes. But, you also learn from in, you know, in their they're going to admit their mistakes and not hide them.
So yeah. That's brilliant. Yeah. I do have some questions. you know, just to kind of talk about, you know, I guess about leaders. So the first one is about, someone who's stepping into leadership role for the first time. Maybe they were a peer, and then now they're going to lead, or maybe they're taking on a new team.
what what's some advice you would give to somebody making that transition?
Alex Reneman
Not have a short memory? is probably one piece of advice. And what I mean by that is. Yeah, I don't know how many times. And we've all seen it. Someone when they're in the rank and file, if you will, with you. They do certain things X, Y and Z. Once they become a manager or a leader in some way, they act as if they've never did it.
That stuff, they don't understand it. Well, this is what the company needs. That is so disingenuous, and I think probably turns more people against folks who've been promoted instead of instead of them championing you, they'll tear it, tear you down. So I know we talk about short memories all the time and learning quick and all that kind of stuff, but in that regard, I don't I don't think you want to not forget where you came from because it's so easy to think, well, I'm a manager now, and this is what they're telling me.
And you're getting a lot of noise from, from potentially people above you or whatever. But man, boy, that's that's the quickest way to to sink yourself. I think.
Yeah. I hear I just saw a post from a former colleague and they talked about making that transition and, the struggle with the people you were close with on the team that, you know, maybe, like, you know, you know, holding them accountable and just kind of like, not it's not like you're indebted to them to do favors or treat them differently and that, you know, how about navigating, you know, that type of environment.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the other side of that. You know, one is not forgetting you need to be able to be empathetic because you've been there. But you also, if you were maybe behaving, you know, if you weren't the greatest employee or what, you know, you made these mistakes with someone. If you if you just then condone that kind of behavior, you can't do that either, because you're there to make the organization better.
but I think it's, it becomes for, for me, at least in my experience, if it's less about what's best for the organization. But it's even what's best for that individual employee, right? Because what's best for the organization often is what's best for them, unless you're in some kind of seedy company. And if you're there, you should probably be looking for another job anyway.
But if you're, you know, a company recognizes that employees that are flourishing means the company is flourishing, then you can mess this up. And so I think when you go, when you come back to an employee, say, hey, you know, do not now I'm at a roll where I can actually help you now. Right. So whereas before we were both here, now I'm in a leadership role where I can help make this place the place we need.
I can open, you know, leverage your skills in a way. And, you know, it's just kind of basically almost as a it's a group win. It's like we are winning together. I just that means role. And I know that's that can be difficult to navigate. but it's less about I won this thing. Now listen to me. And it's more about hey I'm here bro.
We can, you know, I can connect the thread that we both know and saw in this position. I can help when I'm in my new role. Yeah, if that makes sense.
Mike Huff
Yeah, it does, it does. And I kind of tie in this back to your, your recent podcast on on feedback and, you know, in accountability and I don't know how we got to this place where accountability is a bad thing, you know, but it definitely seems like that's the case. Nobody wants to be accountable, but they want everybody else want somebody else held accountable.
Yeah. How do we kind of navigate that or maybe change that perception of of accountability in the in the workplace?
Alex Reneman
Boy that that's a real challenge because it's it's it's it is there is a workplace solution here for sure. But it's a, it's a human, solution as well. So like in the workplace to your point, zero tolerance isn't going to cut it if it's if there's zero tolerance. And I think you mentioned this earlier, people start hiding their mistakes.
They start hiding things like that. So now there is if you hold someone accountable, what you're doing is telling on them or you're getting them in trouble, because that means they maybe they maybe didn't deliver in the way that they, they, they had committed to. And well, now now everybody's running it, everybody's running a CIA show and it's all cover up and it's all smoke and mirrors and nothing gets done.
And so I think there can't be a zero tolerance. You have to be a fail. It's winner learn, man. And both those things are great. And if you're an organization that doesn't tolerate learning, then you're in trouble. Or if you just lose, then you're in trouble. So I think organizationally, there has to be an environment that's set up to to allow for people to fail and support them along the way, and it'd be okay, and it'd be great examples.
On the human side, though, I do. This is one of the things that you see across our discourse in, in whether it's politics or religion, whether, you know, name anything. it's, it's it's, it's got to be okay for people to make mistakes and grow and, and not judge one another so harshly. Because to your point, none of us want to judge that harshly.
But I think it's so easy to judge others harshly. And what happens really? I mean, you've got more of the psychology in this, I'm sure, but when you're judging others too harshly, you are judging. You're you're the same kind person to judge yourself so harshly. Give yourself some grace. And everybody else too. We all need some. You know, it's it's a it's a key part of success.
We don't have grace for one another and for ourselves. It's a miserable existence.
Mike Huff
Yeah. In your, your last talk to of just about how we accept feedback, I don't personally like, I don't want to make mistakes. And I probably wasn't good at accepting feedback in the past. Like, not defensive or just like, I feel like I let somebody down and let myself down. and I think, I had listen to I don't know if you listened to Craig Rochelle at all or read Amy's books that, maybe for the Bible app, he's the guy who does the Bible app.
okay. Bunch of companies and stuff. But, he talks about just kind of framing those conversations, those accountability conversations as like, like where you're coming from, you know, it's like I'm having this conversation with you because I want to see you get better and I want you to improve, but this is going to be some stuff that, you know, you need to take action on and work on.
And, when we do our leadership training, we, we go through this exercise where it's like, what's what is good feedback. Like, look like what good constructive feedback looks like. And we always get the compliment sandwich comes up there, you know, or whatever you want to call it. But you know, the the problem with that is you missed.
You could miss the message. You know, they, they see like, you know, they said I did this good thing. Then they had this one bad thing I have to work on and then this one good thing. And they're like, hey, you know. Yeah. Right. So, how do you like, how do you like, how do you approach that, that feedback with somebody that's that is a difficult conversation to make sure that it's going to hit home and they're going to like take action on it.
And then even afterwards following up.
Alex Reneman
This is hard. And I think to your point again, I appreciate you. You've listened to our stuff. I, I mentioned this the podcast, I, I have struggled this through the years because I genuinely love the people that I work with. And so giving them feedback to your point, I think sometimes feels it's hard. and so you want to deliver it as softly as possible on a silk pillow, you know, and, and and the problem is, you know, sometimes people fall asleep on the pillow and they don't ever get feedback.
So I think that's where for, for me, I really when I'm doing it. Well, and that doesn't mean I'm always doing it well, but when I'm doing it well, it's like, hey, Mike, we got to talk about something. This is going to be fun. I mean, we we really got a problem here in this. Yeah. You know, I don't like the way you approach this or whatever else, and you just go right into it.
Then you can be then then it's all about it's not break them down and build them up. And I'm like, like a drill sergeant or something. But here's getting to it because they probably know they screwed up, or maybe they didn't either way, but if they did, it's super awkward. Like doing the whole sandwich of of oh, here's some good stuff.
And then here's the thing and here's the good stuff again. So for me, when I'm doing it well, I just come right out and I say, hey, this thing we're going on, let's, let's do a thing. Let's, let's talk about it. Here's, here's what I'm seeing. What did you see? How did this go down? Questions are always more powerful than statements.
That's always important to me. Instead of coming in and accusing, it's like, hey, this didn't feel right to me. What did you think? Or or this, this didn't seem like, worked out. Do you think the same thing, you know, that kind of thing. So you're again, I know there's some some tactics there, but generally come right to it.
Asking questions, trying to understand that helps me. And then and then ultimately I will follow up to make sure I'm still who they knew me to be. And I still love them. And we still want to move forward. And it's about learning. It's all it's not about blame. It's about what could we have done better, and is there anything we can do now to fix it?
That kind of is more outcome focused. And so I think that those are the tactics, but I don't think any of those are going to work if you don't have if you haven't already created an environment that allows that conversation to happen, even though we all have our personalities and welcome in and have some defensiveness or prickliness or whatever else, there's an environment that nurtures that kind of learning organization and that kind of of iteration and improvement.
And you can feel fast and all the kind of things. Right. And if you don't have that environment, it's really hard to come in and just start talking about your feedback because the first thing is going through their mind, isn't it? Oh, we all have the first things, right. Survival stuff like, oh, this is terrible, I'm in trouble, blah blah blah, right.
But then that goes away and they can hear the actual message. If you're not an environment that's conducive for feedback, you know where that goes next. It's like, is this am I going to get fired? Is this what's going on it? And then all the things spiral and they're not hearing a daggone word you're saying because they're worried about their self.
Right. And that's just so the environment's really that's that's critical though. The rest of the tactics and stuff I think are, are way less important than having an environment that's open and conducive to feedback.
Mike Huff
Yeah, that's a that's a good point too. And you think about bringing in somebody who's maybe come from a different environment. You know, they kind of have that baggage from a leader that, you know, maybe wasn't, you know, was didn't deliver feedback that way, maybe just only focus on the negative. You know, even with the culture that that's built, you know, you have the framework for with tact and you know, what you're trying to do there and what, you know, the culture you're building.
how do you help somebody that's kind of like holding on to that baggage? And in the new environment?
Alex Reneman
that's astute, Mike. I mean, that's one of my biggest frustrations. We bring an employee, and I. And I think, man, they're going to be a rock star here. But they've got they're going to bring in some PTSD from a previous work environment and maybe multiple previous work environments. Right. Some people have a whole career that way. And it's hard.
It's hard. And, you know, it's terrible because that person generally sticks out like a sore thumb here for a while because everyone else can see it. Right. They know the environment's different and like, look, the little bits of feedback, there's lots of excuses and defense and whatever. And it takes it honestly, man, it takes patience. It takes time.
It takes a team of champions to help them. You can't. You one person isn't going be able to do it because they're going to get they're going to need sounding boards. So, you know, when those folks come into the organization, we assign, we assign them basically battle buddies, right? So they've got they've got a fit and performance partner.
And those two people can just help be a sounding board for them through that process. Now the performance partner has some of those more feedback type conversations. but they they've got to have they've got have they, they got it. They got to trust and it takes a while. And so they've got to kind of poke they're looking for the defense where how do I break through this defense.
And then they realize after after a while some some sooner than others. Oh this is a safe place and they'll have relapses and they'll do all that. But man I, I would love to have a magic bullet for that because employees that come here would be so much more happy and so much more effective, so, so much sooner if they can just let that go.
But we all build our defense mechanisms. We all have our experiences, and it's kind of hard to break through. So I think it's it's a it's a supporting cast. No one no one leader is gonna be able to do that. And in my perspective, because especially as a leader, if they come from a real parochial hierarchy, hierarchy organization, and you are much more of a collaborative leader like I like myself, there's they're going to see you as the big bad man.
You're the man. You know, that's who you are. And that persona, you're not going to change that. It's going to take time. Times could take how other they see others see you. So it's it's complex and nuanced and unfortunately I think time I've found is is the biggest determinant there. As long as you're consistent in your behavior over time, that stuff will come down.
Not for all. Some people wash out, dude. Some people, we will bring him here. We want him to be here. I'm so excited about him being here and they can never get over it. They they hold on to this. I can't trust anybody. I've got to be, you know, and and they they end up subterfuge and I hate that.
But it happens.
Mike Huff
Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Yeah I think I like the, what would you call it, a fit and performance, buddy.
Alex Reneman
Yes. That's right. Fit and performance partners. Yeah.
Mike Huff
That's great. Yeah. yeah, that's a good way to kind of like show that you're investing in that. And that person, you know, you care about them and you want them to be successful. So that's right.
Alex Reneman
It's it's stemmed from in the in the military. Now we had battle buddies. Right. So you had a battle buddy. Wherever where was going on the battle. You better know who this guy is or this guy. And and that kind of extended out to we had battle buddies at Mountain Ridge early on, and then we we split that into fit, a fit partner and a performance partner because there's a different there's kind of different conversations.
And, and it's, it's I think it's helpful. We've got some work to do there, but it's been helpful. I think.
Mike Huff
Yeah. How do you. So, when you're bringing somebody in at Mountain Leverage, how do you weigh that, potential fit versus maybe just potential? Maybe the fit isn't quite there, but the potential really is. And how do you kind of like navigate that?
Alex Reneman
It makes hiring hard because our standards are really high in terms of their competency. So you have to be really good at what you do. And that's, that's, that's a right that, that that already lops off a ton of the workforce just is what it is. We're not all I get it, you know, but we're looking for high performers.
So it starts there. However then the next phase for everyone to be looked at is this lens of fit. And and candidly, once you get there, fit becomes more important than performance. For me, once you're you're you're a certified high performer, if you will. we've all seen it, I guess in, in sports, you know, you look at a, a star slugger or somebody, whatever sport you follow, right.
And they're great. You know, point guard, whatever it is, they're great at one team and they're killer. They're MVP, they're doing their thing. Then you ship them off in a deal to another team. And also they struggle or they don't do well or whatever else that's not perform. Their performance is suffering. But it wasn't it's not a performance related item.
It's a fit related item that typically impacts their performance. And so here when someone's coming in to evaluate them, that that fit piece is the most critical part. once they've kind of passed that initial performance, component and so I've always said, you know, if you could be the best at whatever you're doing in the world, but if you're an asshole, you don't belong about leverage.
You know, I mean, go somewhere else. There are people that tolerate that stuff. Their organization is built for that, and you guys can cut each other's throats all day long. That mountain leverage. We want people who are great at what they do, but they're good people. They're going to be good to one another. They're going to they're going to be able to be a team.
And that's super important. So that fit piece is critical every time, Mike. Every time I have ever went against my gut on somebody for fit, it's come back and bite me in the butt every time. It's never worked out now performance. Sometimes it's worked out. Sometimes it has it because sometimes somebody will surprise you but fit anytime you get it in your, you know, the upper gut and it's like you, but this person fails every time and doesn't mean we still don't go against our gut and learn the lesson over and over.
It's one of the silly things as humans, we sometimes lessons is we're thick at it. but every time, dude. So yeah, the fit is is absolutely critical for us. I mean, every organization is different, I guess, but for us, fit is is is premium.
Mike Huff
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I think it makes sense. Yeah. You can you can train the other stuff for most of the other stuff and that fit that fit. It's harder but it's harder to kind of, you know, shape and mold.
Alex Reneman
It is hard. But I think one of the things we get lured into sometimes, and this is the trick, so you can focus so much on fit and lose. That part of fit is being a killer worker. Right? So like, oh, this person loves what we're doing. They look because there's a lot of things to love. But about leverage, if you fit here in the employee perspective.
But you can come right along. Right? Oh I fit really well in the seat. I'm not doing it. I'm not productive. I'm not a killer in my role. I'm not really contributing. But I'm fitting and that's so easy to lure ourselves into. We've been in those situations where or lull ourselves to where we think this person is a fit, but they're just not getting the work done.
It's like, well, are they really a fit? Because people who fit here are people who want to be, who want to be effective and want to be contributors and want to have have, high outcomes for our customers and each other. That's also part of fit. It's not particularly about the specific performance of their job role, but it's a fit in terms of where they are.
So that's where it bridges across. And for us, we've I've seen us sometimes be we've we've masked that. We've seen someone who like, well they fit, but they just aren't getting any work done. It's like well then do they really fit. You know. And so that's tricky.
Mike Huff
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking like, you know, you come off as a really nice guy, you know, do you find that that is I guess I'm trying to ask like, how do you how do you prevent people from kind of taking advantage of that?
Alex Reneman
Yeah, that's a good question. I think if you ask my wife, maybe she would disagree about the nice thing. I don't know, I just I would hope she would say I'm nice. I think she would. no. So that's a really good question. Here's here's what I wish, what I've, I've experienced in my time. So and I don't always get it right, but when I'm, when I'm doing it well, it's that all those statements people like to say when they're told like, don't, don't mistake my kindness for weakness, you know that that's true.
So I think projecting strength, not in a silly statesman way of power on the table or I'm going to do these threaten these things. It's not that. But to be able to to also execute myself. I'm not a passive leader. I'm engage people see how I think they I'm very, authentic in that. So I reveal who I am.
And they see they see my work ethic, they see what I do. And I think that's important. so, so when when I see that, somebody trying to take advantage of me, I have that direct conversation, and I'm not I don't pussyfoot around about it. they know I care, but they also know I expect, you know, great results.
I expect excellence ultimately, or at least the pursuit of excellence. And so I think that helps. Right? Just in in comparing that with being nice, I mean, there are managers that go around and pet people that's, you know, oh okay. Man. What what are you doing though? Right. so I try not to do that necessarily. I mean, I have lots of compliments, but people deserve them.
They deserve more than I can give them. in terms of compliments. So I think that's important. But there's another piece to this that because I'm not I'm not the best manager. I'm not, I'm not I'm not actually a terrible manager, to be quite honest. And so instead of trying to be a better manager, which I've tried to be over the years, I build a culture that creates this immune system that that will will kind of, you know, push people out there trying to take advantage of me or others, and it'll be uncomfortable for me.
It turns up the heat in a way where they're uncomfortable, or they swell up and stick out where one looks and goes, wait a minute. And then Championship takes some, you know, in place. So others are talking to them about something. I'm talking, you know, whoever who's working with him, it begins to be it's just it's truly an organism.
It's not. It's an organization, but it's an organism that has this immune system of culture that for those of us that fit here, it's it's super cozy. We love it. It lets us flourish. It's great. We can grow. And for those that don't, it's really difficult. It's a difficult environment for them to be in. So, you know, there's an old country song some girls don't like, boys like me and some girls do.
It's like that. If you don't fit here, it's gonna be miserable, a miserable experience for you. And if you do fit here, it can be the best place you've ever worked. And that's. And I say that without hubris. That's been feedback over the years and that's what we've tried to build.
Mike Huff
Yeah, it sounds great. It sounds like you're, you know, other people are holding each other accountable. And when when something does come up, you're not letting it fester to where it's going to be more painful to kind of address down the road.
Alex Reneman
And our best. Yeah, we still it still happens. But, it does a pretty good job. And normally, you know, you can tell, right. Even if you let in some pressure like, okay, it's just like any of us. Right? We have, we have a something going on, it's like, oh no, that's a, you know, it's a, it's a bug bite is swollen up.
I see it's there. But you live with it. But you know, it's there. And yeah, we try to address them as soon as possible in a way that because again, I think this is important for, for me, anyway, my goal isn't to take advantage of our employees to achieve an outcome that I'm looking for. It's not about my I want to get rich.
I'm going to hire a bunch of people, churn and burn, build it up, sell. And I'm winning. My goal, fundamentally, is for you as my employee to flourish and even to save my employees hard for us as a team, but for my goals for you to flourish and and I want you to flourish at Mountain Leverage if you can.
And if you can't, I want you to flourish. So that means you have to go flourish somewhere else. And so when I focus on that and the rest of the team is focused on that, I think that that that adds a bit of a just a bit of a magic for us that allows it to be more real as opposed to all the games that lots of people try to play and companies play.
And it's just it's feels like a ton of waste, man. But if I'm focused on your flourishing and now here, okay, this plays up to okay, I'm not altruistic. I want this to be successful. I want to create a valuable company. I want to build things for our customers and do great things for the world. But if I'm focusing on your flaws and your flaws, me and everybody in the company, if we're all flourishing, you're going to win.
You're going to win. You're going to win all that stuff, right? You're going to do it right financially. You're going to do it right. From a product standpoint, you can do it right. From a service standpoint, your customer's going to be happy. Your partner is going to be happy. The world is going to be happy if you're doing it right, if everybody's flourishing, you win.
So I guess that's probably a hillbilly way to look at it. But that's how I kind of look at things.
Mike Huff
Now, I love it. It's kind of a field of dreams, right? You know? Yeah. You come and yeah.
Alex Reneman
It's exactly right.
Mike Huff
To be successful. who's who's your most impactful leader in your life and why?
Alex Reneman
Wow. who's my most been? I'll tell you what, I it's such a smorgasbord of of things I've drawn. So growing up in, in small town West Virginia and Grafton love this place. It's a small little old railroad town. sleepy to a certain degree, but. But not in other ways. there were all kinds of people who influenced me.
And of course, my parents, you've got, you've got all kinds of neighbors, community members. I grew up, you know, as a kid shooting pool in the VFW and lots of old veterans that were there that had life stories to share with me. So maybe I shouldn't hurt at a young age. Whatever. but all kinds of people took interest.
My community took interest in me. but but also what I didn't have is, is, is there's a lot of good horse sense and how to live and how to be a human and treat others and all that kind of stuff. But I didn't have leaders per se, from a business standpoint. And so that's where, you know, books on tape back in the day, motivational speakers back in, they, you know, get it, get a cassette tape plug those things in books, you know, pop up books and read.
I really get a lot of mentorship from, you know, those those guys. I start going through their names right now. But, back when I was a teenager and even younger a little bit, and certainly as I, as I aged. So that all kind of influenced me. And I've always carried that through to this next life. So I don't really have a dedicated mentor of one person who's, like, guiding me through things.
I've got a a whole cadre of awesome people, both, you know, living and dead and those I know and those I don't know that have really influenced me. So I'd like to think I'm, I'm, I'm somewhat of a just a product of of their of their grace and their gratitude and, their or their. Yeah, their grace in terms of, of offering whatever they've offered to me to be able to take a piece of it.
but, you know, obviously, again, I go to the people around me, my parents, my, my wife, my, my kids, you know, as you're the people that are around me on a daily basis, all the people I work with, they lead me just as much as I lead them. So, you know, the team at Mountain Ridge is all very cool.
And I know that sounds very, very hippie. I get it, I actually have a buddy of mine who works with us. He's, he's called me the hillbilly hippie for years because, I do sometimes go into the hippie land, but, yeah, that's I. Yeah, that's not a satisfying answer, dude. Sorry.
Mike Huff
No. That's good. I mean, it's it's an answer. It's it's something we we ask, participants or we do the leadership training who's their most effective leader and why, and then just kind of get them. We get that mindset of, like, what made them most the most impactful leader and kind of think about the behaviors and the impact it had on you.
yeah. My, my mom, you know, and…
Alex Reneman
Yeah, I would love to tell you that I had a, I have a Yoda that I go and sit with and and it's he levitates and teaches me how the force works. But, it's been lots of people. And I see it when you ask me this question. I see him flying through my visual mind and there's a ton of them.
And it is. It's all the people I mentioned and more. But there's there's not any one singular guru that I could point to.
Mike Huff
Okay. we'll talk about culture a little bit, and I'm just going to, I'll preface this by a client we're working with. It has a really, you know, we've been to a lot of their sites. We've been to sites in China and Ireland and across the states. And before we went to any sites, they warned us about this one.
They said, you're going to hate it. Their culture is terrible. People are terrible, blah, blah, blah. You know, you're you know, we're you're still going to go there, but you're probably not going to make an impact. so we went there. It was our third training event and it was probably our best one. People were great. we've been there since.
People were not great. And it's it's a big site. They got three unions. There's a lot of there's a lack of trust. There's leadership. They don't bring up leaders from the, from the front lines because there's such a distrust. Distrust? Yeah. how do you when we talk about culture, you you talked about a little bit earlier about, like, kind of setting that environment, but when you go somewhere and when you talk about the leader bringing past baggage.
But what if the, the environment is the baggage. And as a leader where you have like your small section to work on, like what do you think? Like what would advice would you give somebody in that position to kind of not be discouraged, but also be able to kind of make an impact?
Alex Reneman
Yeah, that's a that's a tough question. and in some cases, it's an impossible question because maybe, maybe what you've got is bad material in terms of what you're trying to do. And I think we all got to recognize that sometimes is real. There are just people who who have a worldview that, the man is trying to keep me down.
The the, the the company is the bad guy. the boss is always trying to screw me. That we when we hire we we we, we acquired a company back in 21. And, by all accounts, it was it's been a fantastic, smashing success. But, you know, companies have cultures, whether they act, whether they put a lot into it or they think they have one or not.
Every company has culture, every organization has cultures or group or whatever. And, we we brought those in and now our cultures were similar enough where it all look the same on the surface. But there's lots of differences. And we still have, you know, we've got echoes of that kind of mixing, mish mashing together and kind of the challenges.
But there was a particular individual on that team that just would not see me as anything other than a terrible beast trying to destroy the worker, the proletariat. And it was I was like, I don't understand, you know, this is not who I am. I literally grew up in West Virginia, where we watched the Mayan wars and history and, and and we've we've, you know, you want to talk about labor history.
I've got it in my in my blood. My my, my ancestors bled on the ground for for labor, labor and their rights and all these things. Right. But he just couldn't get over it. And so ultimately, he had to find another place to flourish. And so sometimes that's a reality. and I think if we go in facing that, we can fix everything and we can make everything work.
Well, you're going to be in for a real rude awakening and disappointment ultimately. But I'm would I say that I'm a I'm a glass at three quarters full almost every time, even if I have to make it up. So it is there is a bit of hope in me that, oh yeah, this can work. And so for me, that's where I, I guess in this sounds, this sounds like maybe a trope, but, you know, questions are more powerful than statements.
So like coming in to just boom, this is how it's going to work. coming with questions. And I think when you look at culturally like you're talking about whether it's whether it's a like an environment overseas or something else, I mean, there are things they may do, mannerisms that you don't understand, but they're actually loving what you're saying.
I went and taught in Japan one time, and I remember everybody sat there with a stone cold face. I'm like, these guys aren't picking it up at all. To my interpreter asking me, like, oh yeah, we're loving what's going on. This is great. You know? It's like a party. And I it kind of struck me for a minute and was like, okay, so I've got to understand this environment more before I go trying to put my culture in it, because some of the tenets of, of the culture that I'd want to set are already here.
I just have to plug into my I gotta change my adapter. It's like when you travel overseas, you know, we got our American, you know, plug in, but there's all kinds of different adapters in every region. And you gotta find that adapter and then plug in. Then you, you certainly you have to add your own culture stuff. But plugging in first makes sense.
So that's why for me in an environment is understanding really what's going on. So the questions are way more powerful than statements. And that's I'd recommend anybody if they're there, put a, a new role or a new group or whatever, really try to understand what the heck's going on first before you come in and lay down the law.
But that's again, that's me. It does doesn't work for everybody. Maybe they you know I don't know. Yeah your right.
Mike Huff
Yeah. We had so we have been meeting with all the supervisors doing the training and that and then we had a session with the next level up and we always do post event calls. We try to keep the momentum going. And, you know, just how are you doing on your activities and we had three guys in there.
And it was just it was it was sad. You know, I felt bad for them. You know, it's it's like, you know, one of the comments I come in here and I get, you know, I signed up to get punched in the face for 12 hours a day or, you know, it's just like, man, you know, it's like, why do you go there?
Why do you stay there? But, at the end of the call, I told them I'm like, the one thing I like about this project is that hopefully we're part of this. That's reshaping the culture and kind of helping you turn that around, because I didn't, you know, I'm kind of that guy. Like, if there's if there's something that's really broke, I kind of navigate towards that because I want, you know, it's going to make the most impact and be able to fix it.
And, and that I kind of felt like these guys were just kind of up against it.
Alex Reneman
It was it's it it's tough. It's almost and this is probably not politically correct or nice to say or whatever, but it's almost like, how much cancer do you want to live with? And the answer is always going to be, well, none. I don't want any cancer because, you know, it's going to grow and spread and and jump around my body and all this stuff.
So the answer's always no. But in organizations, we tolerate cancers all the time in terms of employees who just will not buy in. And they will they will make you pay. They'll they'll influence other people around you, they'll subterfuge things. And so there are unfortunately bad actors in the world. And if those are in those organizations, good luck.
But but I'm with you though, Mike. I try I, I, we try to to to focus on how we can help support that person and, and really try to gain their trust that we are about their flourishing. And if they can see that, then it can be sometimes really a magical story. And that's cool. Those are some of the best, some of the best experiences I can have in my memory from from leading mountain leverage, if you will.
And the leadership side is when when those folks we thought this isn't going to work. And we say, all right, one last try, one last try, and it works. And all of a sudden they're flourishing and it's like, oh, hallelujah. You know, cue the angels kind of thing. So that is that is a great experience. But again I, I do have to ask myself sometimes how much cancer am I willing to tolerate in my body.
And the the answer is always not, I don't want any. That's rude it out. Sometimes you get employees that that make it just too hard.
Mike Huff
Yeah, it's hard to like, we talked about memory earlier, short term, having a short term and not having a short term. I not like, you know, hold hold a grudge against somebody and hold a grudge. But just like, keep that like attitude they had in the past and just kind of move past it as a leader because, I mean, we're humans.
We remember that, like, somebody wronged you, it's hard to let that go. And how do you move forward and just continue to invest in them without the letting that stuff creep, creep into your mind?
Alex Reneman
Grace. Grace is the answer, man. I and it's not it's easy answer that's hard to to let up. But but if I instead of this person was against me and I'm mad at them, I'm more of this person and I. This may or may not be fair, but more of this person is was was struggling with some things, past history, some events, whatever else.
And they responded probably hell, anybody would maybe know how I would, maybe I would, I don't know. But that's where Grace comes in. I'm like they respond as best they knew how in that moment, and they found a way to overcome that. Then I become their champion, and I'm excited about that because they have found a way through in growth, and that almost always just neutralizes whatever angst or pain they gave me in the past.
And I don't I don't know, man, I don't know. Maybe it won't work in every situation, but it's worked a ton for me. to, to like, all of a sudden go, wow, they overcame this thing. You know, having some grace ago. That thing is hard, first of all. So Grace first and then like, become their champion. Then you're, like, rooting for him.
You're like, oh my gosh, this is great. All of a sudden you're no longer their their former opponent, you're their champion. And that just that switch in my head has helped me not to hold grudges for people who were holes earlier or anything, you know, made it hard, whatever it may be.
Mike Huff
Yeah. My, my buddy that I work with, he has a saying, it says that people aren't necessarily doing something against you, but they're doing it to meet a personal need. And that's.
Alex Reneman
Almost always.
Mike Huff
Yeah, yeah. It's not they're not out to get you. I sure that yeah.
Alex Reneman
In most cases and even those. Yeah. You get deep in psychology too. But most, most cases even people that are trying to go out and get you, that's still coming from something. It's, you know, it's like, yeah, I mean, it does. Again, it doesn't mean you can tolerate it all. I get that, but it does help to your point.
You know, after the fact, if there's been some remediation or some correction, it helps you from not holding on to that.
Mike Huff
Okay. just a couple more here. how do you spot an emerging leader? Like, what do you look for or what? What do you see in that person that you're like, this person's going to lead some day and do great things.
Alex Reneman
Curiosity. You know, they want to understand how things work, why things are the way they are, what we're trying to do. And you know, those coming. So that's important. I think, you know, folks who aren't afraid to, to fail, they want to stick their face in the fan. That's a phrase that's used a lot in sports or whatever else.
because it being a leader, you have to be able to be you have to have this intellectual curiosity, or else I think you become tunnel vision and you can really, you know, be a bad leader. Candidly. so that's important. But, you know, things can be hard, things can be hard. And you have to be able to just be willing to to face the storm, if you will, and plow through that.
So I think those are two things. Obviously, there's all kinds of baseline skills and empathy. Right. Empathy is really important. I think, you know, again, this year, this is the world according to Alex Manning. Who knows, next week I might have some different opinions for you. But we want to go get empathy is is just vital that emotional intelligence whatever you want to call it.
So I can I can do my best even if I don't understand your plight. I understand you have a plight and I can have feelings for that plight. I think that's a an unsung value of leadership that, I've found for me, has been as valuable as anything. You know, obviously, you want smart people. You want people who are capable and all the baseline stuff.
But when I look at, like the intangible, like, I guess the the next level of things, it is, it is that it's it's curiosity, it's the tenacity, the persistence. Just willing to to not give up. And and you know, I mean, ultimately that, that that whole empathy, I mean, you got to care for for me again, some organizations you can just can be a tyrant.
That's what they want in leaders. And that's that's cool. You can learn a bunch of those people up, but the people who can, who can drive when needed, who are curious to make sure they're going in the right direction, and the people who can make sure the people that coming with them aren't absolutely being drug by chain behind them.
That's that's the kind of leader I'm looking for.
Mike Huff
Okay. What about, I think you did a little bit on imposter syndrome a while back. What about when that person doesn't necessarily see that in themselves? But, like, you, that value you have?
Alex Reneman
Listen to the podcast. Man, I I'm, I am yeah, I'm actually impressed. I'm pleased. I'm honored. I'm honored. Humbled. so yeah. So that's a that's a big one. We got, utilized a bunch of that leverage you up and I'm not telling on, but you're not a bunch of motley employees up, and you start separating them by who thinks they're better than they are, and who has has the imposter syndrome and thinks they're worse than they are.
And you will be so lopsided that the seesaw will fly anybody on the other and clear out the next county. Because I've got a ton of people who are awesome. They're absolutely killers. They're amazing in the world, and they can second guess themselves and question their abilities. And and so we're trying to solve that in every way. We've got a cool program we're about to put in here another month or so that another attempt to help solve that.
and so that's a lot of my discussions with folks is, is you are and I think I can tell them all day long they're great. And I think that's important. So as a leader, if I spend time focusing on the lowest common denominator. So let's say we have some folks that are failing and aren't getting it done.
If I'm spending my communication to the company and a lot of CEOs do this like, hey, we're down on our numbers, we got people not selling and whatever else you're killer salespeople or, or we're not developing fast enough or digging the this fast or whatever it is. Your killers are hearing that as well. So your a players are hearing that and they're hearing we're not doing enough.
We're not doing enough. That's hard on them. And so and I'm not saying you sugarcoat everything. There's a reality that sometimes there's challenges. You got to bring them up. But I spend more time on the other side of of talking about what we're doing well and maybe where we need to improve, sure, but not focusing on the lowest common denominator or the people who are just dragging along and maybe probably shouldn't be here, or they're just struggling right now and they'll find a way through it.
The more I spin that way when I'm talking corporately, the more I'm bringing everybody down and the more I'm feeding on that piece. So again, fundamentally, I try to create an environment where we're focused on on the best parts of ourselves and encouraging that and kind of, supporting that. But but I think there's another piece of this.
It's really important. When I'm in individual conversations, I can compliment them all. They want my goal. I'm trying to help them see, I'm trying to help them see what they're doing. And so I had somebody the other day ask, ask, ask me about, you know, we were talking about something they said, well, I'm just yeah, I'm just somewhat new here and I'm not really, you know, you guys have done this great thing, and I just gave her the analogy.
I think she just shares the company last week, but I just gave her the analogy. I said, you know, when you're pulling a puzzle, which piece is the most important is the first one is the last one is the one in between. And she was like, well, that makes sense. And she was it. It helped you realize she's important to what we're doing, right?
And and just things like that, I guess, you know, again, I can tell you, oh, you're doing great. You're doing great. They want to hear that. And that's important as long as it's real and not made up. But I found what really sticks with them. Like that compliment lasts for a day or two a week. Who knows, maybe a month, I don't know, but but helping them see their awesomeness in a way where I can, I can be another voice in their mind and also help them be another voice in their mind with their imposter syndrome to balance it out.
I think that's as a leader. That's a really important thing. That's not easy. Navigating everybody's different. So I don't have a template to just hand somebody, say, these are the seven things you want to say to your employees to have them sorted out. It's it's tough, but that's, that's that's my responsibility as leader. I think that's one of the big responsibilities I have.
Mike Huff
Yeah, I think you nailed it with the balance part of it because it's, you know, as a leader, it's like it seems like you're you should be giving the team all the credit. And then when something messes up, you're taking all the blame. And, I think there's that, that fine line and I've, I've worked with people that are like, they think they're the best.
And then, you know, I've struggled with the imposter syndrome, you know, big time I that's probably the of the books I've read. It's probably mostly on that type of thing, like, you know, Johnny Cave soundtracks. One is one that sticks with me. You know, those soundtracks you play in your head, those things that you say to yourself, would you say that to somebody else?
I try to think about that. but yeah, just kind of, you know, finding the good, that's another thing we focus on in the leadership training is, you know, finding the good. And, you know, we challenge leaders to to talk about that and the impact it had on the team in the organization. And it's it's a struggle for them.
Like tell me about something, you know, a specific behavior that was good that recently happened that had a big impact on your team in the organization. And I see them, you know, they're all kind of looking up and trying to figure out what it is. But if you ask them, like what was last time somebody let you down or somebody failed or you had, you know, unplanned downtime, you know, they're writing, you know, lists of that stuff.
So we're just trying to change that mindset of of finding the good. And then when you find that good, recognizing that specific behavior, because you do that because you want to repeat it right?
Alex Reneman
Yep. I think it's interesting you bring that up. One of the things I think about from my myself, and I think this is applicable to this conversation and many others, when you talk about that soundtrack, we all have the soundtracks in our head. What we tell ourselves and Mike weaponize that guy. Weaponizing man like we talked on the podcast.
Weaponize him. He's he's a he's an asset or he he or whoever in your head is an asset ultimately if you can weaponize him. But what I how I see myself often in the company and this goes back to the old movie, wild movie, Clockwork Orange and say, oh.
Mike Huff
Yeah, I think.
Alex Reneman
That's what's going right. And he, he phrases himself as the humble narrator. Right. He's the humble narrator. And I really kind of consider myself that at Mountain Leverage that I'm the humble narrator. Yeah, I'm. I'm the founder and the CEO. Right. Some of us fill that role, but I'm also the humble narrator. And so. So when when we have a year or we have a period, that's that's maybe not been as successful as we wanted or something difficult happened or whatever else, I can narrate the story and remind us of some things we we that were amazing in the process.
Or even when I'm talking to an individual, I can remind him of things that were awesome to help be another storyline, another soundtrack in their mind that they can play themselves. And so I do think that's that's an important piece. And you're right, I, I see myself as the humble narrator of Mountain Leverage often.
Mike Huff
What was the… Frank. Is that what was your Frank.
Alex Reneman
Yeah you're right man. You are dialed in dude. Yeah. Frank is my guy. Dude. He's he's talking me right now when you ask me. Look, seriously, when you ask me the opening question about leadership and being a leader, Frank's like, are you kidding me? You're not a leader, blah blah blah, right? You hear all that stuff? And then you heard me kind of psychologically work my way around.
There's a lot of effort. Yeah, I get it. And I. And I went through all that. You play this recording back, you'll see me. I'm. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to Frank. I'm talking to myself. And, you know, I've. I've tried tricks where I say, you know, you talk to yourself like, I like. Don't talk to Alex.
That way. Alex doesn't want this. But, the best thing for me is ultimately been to weaponize that guy and say, hey, I appreciate you, man. It's like my primal brain saying, you know, go eat that snacky cake. But but my other my modern brain said, Frank, is more of a primal guy. And that's okay. I can appreciate it.
But not everybody's kind of navigated that for themselves and sorted out. So I just try to help be the narrator, to help, help be another voice and allow them to have another voice in their head. Because I gotta tell you, man, they're probably I get I get it. There's turd employees out there everywhere. But, for us, in my experience, there are more people that want to be good, that want to do the good things.
They want to be great. And, if they had someone help them see how great they were, they would be great. And then they would help other people be great. And now I'm getting Shangri-La, and I know this is where the hippie comes in, but but ultimately, that's how we work, right? That's the that's the momentum we want in the world of more people being great and wanting others to be great, as opposed to I going to be great to cut you down or I gotta cut myself down.
And it's just, it's not the whole thing's ugly.
Mike Huff
Yeah, yeah. No, I get it. Yeah. I think it's a it's a great mentality to kind of like, you know, not not to get biblical, but you're kind of the spine of that message and, and they're sending the message and.
Alex Reneman
Yeah, sure. You know, hey, good news is spread fast, man. And I know that any of you negative news spreads to ten and good news to two, but but true good news when it spread, it lands and it sticks. It doesn't just it doesn't wait for the next news cycle. Really good news sticks. And I think the more of us that are spreading that, the better.
Alex Reneman is the founder of Mountain Leverage and Unleash Tygart and host of Flourishing w/ Alex Reneman. For 20+ years he has worked as CEO of Mountain Leverage, honing the concept of flourishing and experimenting with it in the business. In July of 2024, he decided to begin to share this idea with others, which led to his podcast, social content, and the plans for other initiatives in the future.
